Yes. Wormholers sure have proven adept at finding PvP except they really aren't and on average they fight considerably less than we do.

ho ho ho.

You're assuming wormholers have problems affording things.

Huh. When did you figure out what WHers did, or what they had to endure?

Are you talking about the tech moons which we've spent hundreds of billions of isk to take/defend, or the SOV which runs into hundreds of billions of isk every month?

Incidentally, we've been quite vocal about tech being nerfed (it has been heavily nerfed), and now we're quite vocal about alliance income being too top-down instead of being bottom-up. You're a bit behind on this one.

There's a difference between using 1 or 2 guys when people are acutally there and have dozens if not hundreads of people sitting on gates and holding their dicks for God knows how long.

"tell me how to see someone in local more likely to gank you, besides, you know, the ones who are usually the ones that gank you"

great post frying doom, give us another one

also a key difference between getting ganked in hisec and getting ganked elsewhere is that those who get ganked in hisec are usually those who fit ridiculously shiny mission ships or move valuable cargo in freighters without double wrapping, while those who get ganked elsewhere are usually targets of opportunity

anyone who bleats "nullsec is safer than hisec hurrr" is just clueless

already killed your argument, fly away

High sec: If you fit your ship properly, you will almost never get ganked, even if you're not paying any attention
Null sec: It doesn't matter how you fit your ship, you will get ganked if someone unfriendly finds you when you're not paying attention

Which one of these is more dangerous again?

You must have something wrong with you if you think it's any harder keeping safe in w-space.

We're of course ignoring wardecs, but in that case local works towards your favor as well so it cancels out.
For the purposes of that post I mean unfriendly as in anyone who isn't explicitly a member of your corp, alliance, or bloc. So therefore people with no standings, neutral standings, and bad/terrible standings.

Not to mention that people who want to gank you in highsec are MUCH more restricted in their ship choices (that is if they don't want to waste a lot of isk doing so but still want to ensure success) whereas in nullsec pretty much any combat capable ship works.

You seem to be under the impression that d-scan is hard.

Isn't that exactly what you do if you're in w-space in a sig and probes pop up on dscan?
I mean come on now, you want us to go fight a probably hot dropper in our PVE ships? Yeah, that'll end well.

Tell us more about how dscanning sees cloaked ships

of course the wormhole people will be terribly opposed to anything that makes life in wormholes more ~interesting~ and introduces actual risk because they have no balls

clearly the nullseccers are less cowardly than they are because they actually put up with hotdrops, supercaps and blobs

I'd watch what they can actually do rather than what they say they'll do, if I were you.


It's still sufficient to give you a few seconds worth of warning before someone lands on you, whereas in nullsec the first hint would be someone uncloaking within 7.5km of you and scrambling you.

It's literally warp in, warp back and dump in/take the PI loot as the ship's aligning back. Your exposure time is measured in seconds, as opposed to hours which is the case for mining or ratting.


Hey, if people want to go to WHs to run anoms, more power to them. I would've thought they'd prefer to make isk in sleeper sites, but vOv

Sure, as long as you come up with a replacement mechanic which lets people actually live in nullsec as well, not just PVP in nullsec.

Did cynos just start working in WHs in the last half hour? I guess they finshed that 100% accurate map of all the connections in every WH too. I do feel kinda bad that you can't close WHs to places you don't like anymore. However I feel pretty good that we can make crazy WH money now.

Notice how you said "and there are [...] safe places to make income".

Guess what would be missing if local was removed with no replacement giving you an indication there were someone hunting you.

Tell me again how cloaked ships show up on d-scan.

There's more to eve than ganking ratters.

nullsec is the riskiest space, period

wormholes have a fourth the population of nullsec but 1/20th the ship kills

statistically that makes wormholes safer than hisec, let alone k-space 0.0

What do you think would be happening if there were no ship replacement program?

i'm glad that you care so much about nullsec that you want it to be more like wormhole space

we care about wormholes so much too, we want it to be more like nullsec!

let's start with getting rid of those pesky mass limitations, making it harder to close wormholes intentionally, allowing supers and titans to cyno in, allowing fleets to get bridged in and otherwise making it so that wormholes aren't a place to hide from your enemies while building up insurmountable force in the form of large numbers of capitals that often reach critical mass where they cannot be killed without bringing in a number of capitals impossible to move through a wormhole, or supers, which cannot enter wormholes period

yeah small gangs matter

tell us another one

also according to MIRIAM THUNDER some random small gang can obviously put up with a fleet of capitals and blap dreads hiding behind the dumbest mechanics in the game that make them near-immune

What do you mean, "paying your pilots"? I don't get money for PVPing.

Well, obviously it's not as epic as it could've been, since literally all wars die off within a few weeks, because there's no emotional attachment to the space because people generally don't live there, but supposedly CCP will be ~doing things~ there soon.

Actually, yes. They should've thought of making alliance income bottom up, not top down. Oh well.

No, null isn't so dead because of blobs, null is so dead because hisec, lowsec and WHs are much more attractive economically, given the amount of effort you have to put in.

We already have those. That is where most nullsec mining takes place, because even if a guy does pop into system and see you are there, you can just bring up d-scan to see if he drops probes to actually find you. If he doesn't have probes, you just keep mining away in complete safety.

If they're saying they're getting money to buy a replacement ship, then that's what I get, but that's what I call "a ship replacement program".

Actually, I supposedly do get money from the corp as well when I lose a ship, but I haven't lost a ship since they put that into produciton, so vOv


Pretty certain the correct way to go about this isn't so much to look at how to make nullsec harder just for the sake of making it harder, but making it so an alliance will take space not just to take space and mine moons/build supers, as is the case today, but actually take it to live in, build its ships, export stuff to hisec etc.


I'm going to go with "tough noogies, they've had near as make no difference CCP's sole attention for most of 3 expansions in a row now, it's our turn now".


The game isn't dead yet, so no, it's not too late. You'll remember there's been vast empires which have crumbled before, even though they were rich as ****. It will happen again.

I think it has been well established that we have plenty of combat going on. Nullsec has more combat that those empty looking wormholes.

I must be imagining all this small gang stuff in CE then.

Yes we do. That is the sort of combat we expect out here and many of us sign up and train to do exactly that sort of thing. We think it is fun. You think it is crap. CCP gave you a place (wormholes) that is virtually immune to blobs and hotdrops. Go to your wormhole, make oodles of isk, and be happy.

We ain't begging CCP to let us drop supers and SBUs in your wormhole, quit trying to make our space empire into lonely boring wormholes.

And by "fixes" you mean "nerfs".

I'm pretty certain that outside of a few tweaks to curb such things as hulk ganking (I say curb, not try to completely destroy, but thankfully pubbies are dumb and still fit for max yield instead of putting tank on vOv), hisec itself hasn't needed that many changes. They're okay, I guess, but not needed.

Lowsec and nullsec, on the other hand, have been screaming harder and harder about fixes which, quite frankly, are required. Lowsec has had some changes to FW, but in true CCP fashion they completely ignored all feedback about how broken it was, until we exposed just how broken it actually was, and I'm not sure they've fixed the systems properly yet. I could be wrong, since I don't do FW, but whatevs.

Nullsec, however, needs a sov system which doesn't suck bags of dicks, it needs an industry which doesn't suck dicks, it needs reasons to stop going to hisec for your every need etc etc etc.

Under your system, how much time would you have to react to impending ganks, and how much effort would you have to expend to avoid it?

Um, you have to pay attention today. If you don't pay attention today, you will get ganked, unlike in hisec where you only really have to pay attention when you've either pissed someone off, or carry something expensive.

Many of us, the guys that actually live in nullsec, have argued that the way to get more people to hang out in nullsec is to provide more things for them to do that pay well enough to deal with the liabilities that come with living in nullsec. Better industry, easier access to minerals, PI style moon mining, anything that rewards individuals for undocking and doing stuff in space.

All the arguments for removing local center on just making it more appealing to covops cloaked gankers. And by making them so over powered, they'll flat out over hunt any other nullsec players until there is nothing left but covops gangs unknowingly passing each other by, and moon mining towers still defended by supers and blobs.

Pity the payouts aren't scaled to match in comparison with nullsec, then.

This is just the wrong way to treat sov nullsec. Wormholes are the real wilderness of Eve. They don't even have stations. I suppose NPC pirate held nullsec might be considered "Outlaw" space.

But sov nullsec is not outlaw. There is a law, and it is the sov holders. And they do what they can to enforce their laws.

It is one of the cool things about Eve, that they actually provide some ground rules and tools and space for player created empires, rather than just have everyone stuck roleplaying some canned NPC faction. What we need is more ways for players to take advantage and reap rewards for using that players molded space. Right now it is stuck in a rut of primary resource extraction, renting, and hotdrops.

No-local doesn't improve that. It takes to possibility of player made empires and reduces it to a cheap shooting gallery.

I'm sceptical of moving T3 components outside of WHs, since I would've thought one of the good things about WHs is that they are the sole source of T3 stuff.

Linking having local to usage is dumb, if anything it should be a module you can anchor on a POS which can be hacked or incapped if a gang decides to **** with it, but requiring to bootstrap a system through ... uh I dunno, ratting or mining, just to get local? No.

You're starting to dip into lore here.
Need I remind you that's really not a good justification for anything?

It's not even good lore at that. Who says we don't have populations and big budgets and influence. We cornered the tech market. We got up to supplying 40% of the enriched uranium in Jita. I run colonies on over a dozen planets and so do hundreds of other goons.

This idea that we have to be poor out in nullsec is the reason why no one bothers trying to make isk out here. Nullsec is poor, highsec is wealthy, everyone just stay in highsec and enjoy civilization. After all, nullsec must always be gimped and broken and never as good as anywhere else because of lore.

Lore has nothing to do with it.
You change the lore to fit the game mechanics.
NOT the other way around.

The loss of local can be mitigated by not being a complete tool.

Really I've spent nearly all of my time in EVE in 0.0 and really if you are not a complete tool (as mentioned above) it really is quite hard to lose a ratting ship.

Make all anon,plexe's etc need to be scanned and that will remove one of the only reasons I ever used local.

Checks and balances though, having no local and having the usual 0.0 isk making sites scannable with DS really would make a large swave of 0.0 pointless to be in and even though I would like to see local go even I couldn't agree to that.

But in sov nullsec we get to make out own lore and our own narrative.

We (the goons) have locked up technetium in a cartel, choked off oxygen isotope mining, made Hulk ganking as professional sport, laid siege to Jita, engaged in all sort of other game shaking activities.


It would not surprise me is "goons" is mention in these forums as often as the NPC factions. And the NPC factions really don't do anything except sit there and provide backstory. Goons at least generate actual news.

How do you propose you explain "if you don't kill 3000 rats per day in a system, you lose local" in a nonretarded manner? Having a structure you can shoot or hack to disable makes more sense, either it works or it doesn't. As for "paid some isk", personally I'd prefer it if we didn't have to pay anything directly to concord, since uh, it makes little sense why we should pay anything to concord when they do diddly squat there, but I'll deal with it since it's one of the few isk sinks still present in the game.

Goons made plenty of Eve news before they held tech moons. They were making news before tech was even the bottleneck.

"call to flying around ops, guys, time to make sure we have local in these systems!"

How about people in highsec pay some high taxes to go with high society?

They never have to lift a finger to protect their stations because their stations can't be taken. They aren't going to find themselves homeless because some one forgot to pay the bills or no one defended the NPC empire's income source.

If we are going to follow lore that closely, living in highsec should be as expensive as living in a real world big city.

We'll have to add "local safaris" like we do sec safaris. Or when we did a ton of mining to get industry upgrades and grav sites when the drone poop nerf hit.


And there is nothing wrong with paying for stuff with isk. Especially if we can come up with more taxable activity for people in nullsec to engage in. I'd be fine with paying a bit more to stick local chat on the IHub. I already pay over 300mil a month in taxes. I wonder if any of the highsec afk ice miners pay anything close to that to get local and concord protection.

If only that were true.

Speaking of lore...

The Pirate faction ammo should be more powerful than empire faction ammo. They are pirates after all, and not being bound by rules or regulation on war and munitions productions.

Yet, the ammo we get out of LP stores in nullsec is hands down worse than what people grind out safely in empire.

One thing is always certain, if CCP isn't gimping nullsec, the peanut gallery is begging them to hobble it some more.